Tuesday, March 1, 2011

The most common lie in a guild app

Over the years I've spent a lot of time dealing with guild applications. Designing them, reading them, critiqueing them, filling them out, etc. I've written a couple posts on how to properly apply for a raiding guild, and I still poke my head into recruitment forums just to see what other folks are producing.

Most guild application are fairly straight forward affairs, though some are certainly more developed than others. Like a job application, this is a guild's opportunity to get to know you before they take the time to actually speak with you. Because of this, it's generally your first (and often only) chance to tell them what they want to hear about you.

Typical questions are about your spec, role, playtimes (or playstyle), former raid experience, former guilds (and why you left) etc. They want to make sure they aren't getting a habitual guild hopper, or someone who just opened WoW for the first time ever. These questions are generally fair and easy enough to answer (if you put 30 sec worth of effort into it), but then we come to the big one.

The big lie

The one question that sets you up for failure faster than anything else, at least if you're being expected to tell the truth on everything.

Are you willing to sit out for another raid member?

Uh - what is no? Look, you're recruiting for my role here. Your board specifically says you have a high need for a Holy Paladin, hence my application. So why would I sit out for someone else? Maybe if it's an extreme case where we really need that one extra DPS, but then I want to know why you're not sitting that guy who you have 2 or 3 of his class in.

In all honesty though, I play to raid. I also think it's pretty poor form to expect someone to be on and available, but not actually raid. Requireing you to be on vent or (worse) sitting outside the instance logged in - on the CHANCE you'll be called in. Bugger that. I can make an exception if you're in a guild that is racing for world (maybe, and I mean MAYBE server) firsts. In guilds like Paragon and Vodka you do whatever it takes for those kills. Then you resume normal play again, and ratchet down.

Unfortunately, this attitude doesn't seem to be the popular one, because larger guilds need a bench to operate. You want your bench players to have some idea of the fights, and it doesn't hurt them to get gear. My only response to that is...

I don't care - I want a white one

Honestly, I could care less about Jimmy the 3rd Pally getting in to heal or what not. I don't play the game for Jimmy, I play for me. If I make the scheduling requirements to raid, I expect to be in there - every single raid.

There's probably at least one

I'm sure that of my few readers (and the thousands of raiders) at least one or two are honestly ok with sitting out for the good of the raid. Personally, I want to throw up and tell the applicant to grow a pair every time I read something like "I'm completely ok with sitting, because it's for the good of the raid that everyone gets a chance to experience the content and get some gear". /vomit


  1. I personally don't mind sitting out for others. I'm sure others are also like that. That being said, I don't really get sat out often though.

  2. If people aren't ok for sitting out of a raid then they can go to another guild

    In a 10 man team we want some depth to take account fo holidays

    This means we have 4 main spec healers 8 dps 2 tanks.

    We encourage everybody to have a viable PvE offspec, this means one of DPS has a tanking offspec, our tanks have a healing off spec and a DPS offspec.

    And sometimes we can have a perfect storm and still nto have the cover and other times it feels like we run with two much of a bench.

    But after years of running this 14 players for a ten man team is the right number for us. And if people weren;t happy to be benched then they can leave. Raid leading is ahrd enough asking people to sit out, without anyone giving grief for it if they aren;t happy go form your own guild. Don't grief the people trying to keep a team of players happy and progressing.

    yes their will always be drama and emoness all you can hope is everyone puts the team above themselves and it is all transparent and fair and it should limit it.

  3. @sweetiebird - That's why I try and avoid the "everyone" or "always" type statements, because there's usually at least one person that disagrees (which is good).

    @claisa - They sure can, but I'm talking about the lie people put on guild applications to get in. We run a 10m roster for a 10m guild - no bench. The biggest problem I have with sitting is the expectation that you be there and be available 'just in case'. We don't know if you're going to be raiding tonight or not - so just be online and ready. I can maybe swallow it if I know ahead of time that I'll be sitting for Jim. Maybe.

  4. Speaking as another person who juggles a raid roster - I don't know how folks with no bench players do it. Not that we have "bench" players as such - but we have a roster of fifteen for our ten mans, three nights per week. Everybody raids two nights minimum. Even with this buffer (three tanks, four-five healers, seven DPS) we still had to cancel a raid on Monday due to rampant unavailability.

    Is it perfect? Sadly, no. At times it has slowed our progression (because of people who were new to fights) but primarily it's been good. It works well for folks with kids and other commitments. If there were just ten of us that'd be intense pressure to always be available and I don't think I could do it, let alone expect every raider to do it too.

    I agree wholeheartedly with you though about benching and standby - I don't expect people with the night off to sit around twiddling their thumbs or listening in. It's nice if they login ten minutes before raid to see if a sub is needed, but if they can't do that, I hope they have a good night doing whatever other thing they want to do!

  5. Vidyala - we do it by being more flexible than a Yoga instructor. I'll put a post up soon describing how our guild (dis)functions.

  6. "I'll put a post up soon describing how our guild (dis)functions"

    This should be a good one.

  7. Interesting opinion, you obviously feel strongly about it! I suppose it depends on what type of guild you're applying to - with very dedicated progression-minded guilds, I would expect a high level of personal competition from people like what you've expressed here, and the "I WANT to raid, I play for ME" mindset. And your point about recruiting a specific role is a very good one - if you wanted a Holy paladin, why are you asking your Holy paladin to now sit?

    However, I always look at it from a team perspective first. Which in an application might not always be best! I can totally understand a guild wanting a passionate, "I want to be the best!" mindset. It could come across poorly if on an application you don't seem to really care if you raid or not.

    But I know with my guild, it's quite simple. If we have 11 raiders online, someone has to sit. Would I like to raid? Of course. Would I volunteer to sit? Probably not. But if we all drew straws and it ended up being me, I'd be perfectly fine with that. I'd go play Minecraft, level an alt, or do any number of things.

    I guess to sum it up: I'm willing to sit out if everyone has to take turns doing so, or if it's a luck of the draw decision. I wouldn't want to be selected to sit out, nor would I want to volunteer to sit.

    In any case though, I would NOT be okay with being "on call" and sitting outside the raid instance doing nothing. If I'm not one of the active raid members for the night, I think it is only fair to consider me logged off and thus unavailable.


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